Brett: 0:00

Episode number 65, my wife. Again, hello and welcome to the Fighting for Connection podcast. I'm Brett Nicola, a husband, father and fun lover. Listen in as I share stories, tips and inspiration that will move you toward the connection that you want in your relationship. Okay, welcome back to the Fighting for Connection podcast. Today it's Monday, december 11th, and it's kind of a bittersweet day for me. It's the last day that my wife Kelsey is going to be working in the office with me. For the last year or so she's been coming into the office once or twice a week to work on some projects for Pivotal Approach with me, and now she's officially done and she's going to be going on maternity leave. So I caught her in like literally the last hour of her time here and I said, hey, one last job you have to do is you have to come on this podcast with me, and she was generous enough to do it. So, kelsey, welcome on.

Kelsey: 1:23

I can't say it feels super great to be on. I think I told Brett after the last time that it was a one and done, but Lomie, he sweet-talked me to come on again, so here we are.

Brett: 1:35

Well, I think the way it worked out last time is you said you'd only come on if I brought you somewhere. So I brought you to the Dominican and we actually recorded that last podcast there in our resort room in the Dominican. And this time I kind of wistily away to Mexico, just to actually last weekend. So I guess I was kind of planning this all along that you know, if I brought you there and then proposed the podcast idea on the tail end, you couldn't refuse.

Kelsey: 2:08

Yeah, you have a way, don't you?

Brett: 2:12

So today, you know, I really thought. I've thought about this for a while. I've talked quite a bit on this podcast about the conflict cycle and I've used quite a few of my own examples, but the person that I find myself in the most conflict cycles in my life is sitting here right next to me here. So I thought that it'd be interesting just to have a conversation with her around the conflict cycle and just to see you know what our perspectives are and what our different experiences are within the conflict cycle and share it with all of you guys, because I really feel like this has been something that has been so helpful in our relationship and it's been something that we've been able to develop skills around and utilize, and I feel like it's really had a benefit in our marriage. What would you say?

Kelsey: 3:08

Yeah, I'd say the same thing. It's been the one tool that I feel like we've really been able to I wouldn't say master, but we've been able to use in our relationship consistently and has proved to give us consistent results. It's been like a roadmap for one of those tough things come up.

Brett: 3:26

I guess in our journey with the conflict cycle, when, kelsey, do you feel like you remember really beginning to learn about it or hear about it?

Kelsey: 3:39

I think it was before we had one of our. Was it Brecken? Probably Must have been Brecken before our baby went to a marriage retreat weekend and that was the tool that they were teaching there, and I feel like that was probably what February of 2020?.

Brett: 3:56

Yeah, probably right before COVID, hey, mm-hmm, yeah. And for me, prior to that retreat, I had been working with couples at that point and I was really trying to figure out how to help them. It felt like the tools that I'd be given in my training up until that point just weren't really having the effect that I was hoping that they would. So I went onto our therapist Facebook page and I just started searching around for like effective couples modalities and I stumbled across EFT. And then, as I was digging into EFT and learning about it, I came across this hold me tight marriage retreat. And yeah, I kind of I guess I wasn't going to go to a marriage retreat by myself.

Brett: 4:46

So, like I do with most things, kelsey's my best friend and I just I really enjoy spending time with her and and thought that it'd be really nice if she would come and at least keep me company at this thing and and, like she is, she was gracious enough to come on. But I think I was kind of going there to learn how to help other couples. But I would say that that retreat was impactful for us, wouldn't you say?

Kelsey: 5:12

Yeah, we definitely gained a lot from going there and I think it was like eye opening that how much of it obviously applies to our relationship. And you know, we're a couple of just trying to navigate love, just like everyone else. So I think it was a huge benefit that we went there kind of for you, for work, and we were able to apply so much in our own life.

Brett: 5:35

Yeah, yeah, and that workshop was interesting because it was it was like a group format and I think we kind of saw the power of group like group formats there, just because we were there, maybe like 12 couples or something total.

Brett: 5:53

And and the way that workshop worked is we would learn.

Brett: 6:00

There was like some lessons and then we'd kind of break out just with each other into like breakout rooms and we'd kind of talk about what was being taught in the lesson and there was some structured conversations that we would have with each other and then we'd come back as a group and we'd discuss how our conversations went and we really got to learn, you know kind of the dynamics that were happening in a lot of different relationships.

Brett: 6:28

And we learned there that you know everyone that was there had a complex cycle and they had a lot of similarities to ours, like they weren't all exactly the same. There was relationships who were like ours, where I felt like it was at least for me, it felt like it was at relatively in a good place at that time, and then there was others who, you know, were on the verge of separating, if not basically separated at that point. I think one couple actually had been separated up until that retreat and really having a hard time in their relationship. But yet the same kind of elements of the complex cycle were, I think, felt between everyone there in the group.

Kelsey: 7:19

Yeah, I would agree. I think that was one of the most powerful things about going to that group format was that there was couples in all stages of their relationships, all walks of life. You had people that lived in the city, out in the rural towns, yeah, couples that had been married for years. Some were unmarried, some were having significant marital issues or relationship issues, and others were there just to kind of learn and hopefully learn a tip or two.

Kelsey: 7:45

And what we all realized is, though we all came from different walks of life, there was so many similarities between us that we all have cycles in our relationship and we all are on the same page, just wanting to learn how to navigate some of those relationship challenges that we have.

Brett: 8:02

Yeah, as we learned about that complex cycle, I guess would you say like we walked away from that weekend, kelsey, and everything was different, like did it just overnight change our relationship? Or kind of bring me through like how learning about the complex cycle has had an impact in our relationship from your perspective.

Kelsey: 8:23

Yeah, I feel like going there and learning about it was like, oh, this is kind of neat, you know kind of tuck this away for when we need it, and I don't think we understood maybe the power that it would have over the next few years and hopefully even the years in the future. I think it's one of those things when you first learn something, you don't have it even like a full grasp on it or have it mastered, and it's like you kind of have to learn it and maybe improve that skill as time goes on and as cycles come up. It's like learn as you go type of tool?

Brett: 8:58

Yeah, definitely.

Brett: 8:59

And I think for me, like what I saw, at least within me, was like I began to conceptualize that there was a cycle happening and it was like, oh, this is totally what is going on.

Brett: 9:13

And it kind of felt good to be able to say, yes, that's what's happening.

Brett: 9:19

But it's one thing to learn something. And then I went back home and I began to try to explain this to the couples in my office and they just kind of like blinked back at me it's a whole nother thing to learn something and then to be able to teach it. So then I really began to try to figure out how to learn it to the degree that I could begin to teach it. And as I began to really invest myself into learning about it and being able to explain it Kelsey, you and I we found ourselves in probably a lot of conversations at that time about cycles, and you were really a sport about it. I was really trying to figure this out and I was using our marriages kind of my workshop, but it seemed like it was having a benefit even there too, in our relationship, of just really trying to learn about it, talk about it. It was something productive that I feel like we could turn to when things weren't going very well in our relationship.

Kelsey: 10:17

Yeah, I feel like that was a big thing for us. I think we just kind of rolled the wave of conflict over the first many years of our marriage, or even our relationship, and it was like we didn't really understand what was going on, why it was happening Sometimes it last days, sometimes it last many days and it was like we were just kind of ride the wave and eventually things would simmer down and obviously we would use forgiveness and whatnot in there, but it kind of just was left as a cloud, and then the cloud maybe would kind of pass away and then it would be good until the next thing would come up.

Kelsey: 10:51

So I feel like learning about the cycle is like okay, we can both turn to it that this is what's happening, versus kind of externalize the problem.

Brett: 11:00

Yeah, yeah, and I think one of the questions that I had in here was like how this is different than forgiveness, and as you touch on that, I think it is interesting Like we really relied on forgiveness for those first years of our marriage. I remember one time we were on our way to church, actually, and there was like a short little two or three mile road and it seemed like we'd forgive each other and then one of us would open up our mouth and I think we just kind of came to the conclusion that we better just keep forgiving each other, because we weren't able to really figure out how to talk to each other in a way that didn't activate each other. We just kept slipping right back into that cycle. So what I found, at least in my experience, is that when you don't really understand what's going on or you don't know why, like for me, it hurts. It hurts a lot when we're in the conflict cycle, and before I really understood the conflict cycle, I really felt like you were the one causing the hurt. It felt like you were highlighting things and you were doing things that I was maybe not proud of or embarrassed about or felt inadequate around, and if you just would stop doing that, then everything would feel better and I would be able to believe that you really loved me and cared about me and desired me. So in that way it was like confusing. It was like, well, how do I stop this hurt from happening while you just get Kelsey to stop doing those things? And so, while we would forgive each other, my efforts were still in trying to get you to stop doing those things, but in my efforts to get you to stop doing those things, it seemed like it would hurt you.

Brett: 12:56

I think forgiveness is super, super important, but if you find yourself in these like confusing cycles, it seems like getting a really good understanding about them so that you can talk about them in a way that helps your brain really see that it isn't true that it feels like maybe your spouse doesn't like you, but it's really confusion. And as your brain can see that and understand that and talk through that, and you guys build skills or at least for you and I, kelsey, we build skills to better reassure each other in the cycle, it feels like we can come to a place where we feel reconnected. It feels like we've repaired the fracture in the relationship and it just feels so easy to forgive from that place too, and I would say usually we start with forgiveness and end with forgiveness. But the difference in knowing the complex cycle is that we feel really like we can kind of understand what was happening in that moment and now we have a better trust for each other. What are your thoughts?

Kelsey: 14:04

Yeah, I feel like by no means are we using forgiveness less or even devaluing forgiveness in our relationship. I feel like it's just as important and it will be important forevermore. But it is one of those things where I feel like forgiveness from the heart comes easier. I think that has been a huge thing. I think we could forgive each other maybe with words, but we wouldn't really feel it in our heart.

Kelsey: 14:33

I was in being able to make sense of each other and have forgiveness has been like they are compatible and spend like a good combination. And at that workshop that we went to they had a quote and I've used this many times, but they said that when you understand someone, you can't help but love them. And I feel like that totally rings true, that this cycle, having this cycle kind of mapped out in our relationship, helps you understand each other and that loving comes easier and then the forgiveness from the heart, if that comes sooner, helps me not hold onto their resentment as long anyway.

Brett: 15:13

Yeah, what do you feel like, Kelsey are some of the bigger cycles we've broken? Have you come to mind that you feel like we're really instrumental or pivotal for us?

Kelsey: 15:27

It's hard to pinpoint, I feel like, because the cycles show up in so many different areas of our life or so many different topics. But I feel like the big awareness for me is understanding maybe your underlying insecurities and how my words or actions would trigger those, helps me just approach you differently. Overall, I think like I had the same experience, thinking that if you would just learn to do this, if you learn to treat me this way, then I would feel cared for, I'd feel connected, I'd feel more loved in our everyday life and realizing how I was handling some of those me trying to teach you moments would actually highlight your vulnerable and secure feelings and that would actually get me to where I wanted us to go. I feel like that idea has been maybe like game changer with how I handle conversations with you.

Brett: 16:26

I would agree that that question of like is this creating the relationship that I want is one that is helpful to think about because it's like whoa, like that's the action or the behavior that I want to do, but it doesn't really create the feeling or the relationship that I would like. I'm with you like. It feels like we've had we've had complex cycles and every topic under the sun just about. I do remember one in particular and I don't recall the topic, but I do remember you were sitting at our island and I remember like the feeling, like everything in my body wanted me to respond like I typically do, which, emotionally, I'm a classic withdrawal, so I usually want to like shut Kelsey out. I want to like get away from the pain. I want to. I would say like I become maybe like to your, from your perspective. I become like more cold or kind of behave like a jerk, probably, and you're gonna say something. She's like true.

Kelsey: 17:39

Yeah, that's your cover up, for sure.

Brett: 17:43

And I remember like being like okay, so what's going on here? And I knew that we're in the cycle. I could feel it. I could feel it in my body, like this reactive energy, and I remember being like what's this about? Like why do I want to turn away from her? And it was because I felt like I felt like she wasn't very happy with me and I felt like she like didn't like the way that I was showing up and, interestingly enough, like then I typically would like compound that behavior, I would like do more of it, and then it would just create this own like internal cycle for me. But I remember in that moment just being like okay, so I want to run away because I feel like she's not happy with me. But I believe that we're in the cycle, so I'm guessing that there's something going on for her, or reading her, or there's something has totally gone to miss here.

Brett: 18:37

And I just remember kind of coming up behind you We've probably been going at it for a while and just kind of approaching you, putting my hand on your shoulder and just saying like hey, I feel like something went wrong here and I just want you to know that I want to figure this out with you and I just remember you kind of melting like soft butter and it's. It was like the first time I really broke the cycle on my end. I think you're much more gifted at it than I am and it was really hard for me to to do that. But I remember like, for whatever reason, I was just able to drop down into like a much softer energy, more vulnerable energy. I was able to kind of share with you like I want to be close to you and I want to love you and I don't know what's going on here, but I want to figure it out with you. And I was like it was like wow, like this, when I can do this, it changes everything.

Kelsey: 19:34

But yeah, I feel like that line that I want to figure this out with you has been huge. It's like it grounds you, your, it gets you out of that activated spot and just like, okay, we actually are. We don't feel like we're on the same page here, but we actually want the same end result of connections. So I think when you can back out of the activated place and kind of get to more of like that calm energy, that probably does make room for more discussion or conversation and vulnerable height.

Brett: 20:06

Yeah, for sure, and we've been in some, some doozers of complex cycles I got. I think I talked either on here or in my, in my save the date newsletter about the one that we had out in Seattle. But I just remember, I remember like these things that can kind of pop up anywhere and everywhere and I don't know exactly if we can prevent them, because they really, at the core are, are caused by confusion, and it's hard to prevent confusion in relationships just because they're so inefficient. We have our own perspectives and our own ways of thinking and own ways of saying things and doing things and as we are in relationship with each other, so much can get lost in translation.

Brett: 20:54

But I do remember on that Seattle trip it was another airport thing which I just talked in a couple episodes about another airport, a conflict cycle. But yeah, I just remember we'd we, I thought I'd booked a hotel right next to the airport and I'd booked it like 30 minutes from the airport and we couldn't get an airport transport. So we had to like ride a train in the middle of the night through downtown Seattle there's pouring buckets and we were walking down like homeless, a row with our suitcases, from the bus station, like two blocks to the hotel, and I remember like I remember feeling like you probably were ready just to like kick me to the camp. But they still happen, for sure they totally still happen.

Kelsey: 21:46

And it is one of those things at that workshop they told us like the goal in this all is not to focus on preventing cycles, it's just learning the skill of repairing. Like conflict is going to come up in all relationships and it's actually healthy if you can work through the conflict and then reconnect at the end. So it is one of those things that it's like the goal shouldn't be to shy away from all conflict. But yeah, that Seattle trip was after a few days up in Alaska and it was one of those things where I don't even know exactly how it came about. But Brett had this 39th floor hotel room overlooking the Seattle Market area. So it's beautiful city lights and by the time we got up to that hotel room, neither of us were too impressed with each other and no romance to be found there on the 39th floor.

Brett: 22:41

But we survived it and I think by the time we were like hiking through the daylight of Seattle. Things were feeling a lot better and I really think it's because of the skills. Like that wasn't typical for us in the past. It seemed like the way that we would have had to get over. That is to like let it like slowly fade. But I really feel like that whenever we got some sleep we felt a little bit better and that morning over breakfast we were able to kind of begin the repair process and it goes a lot quicker than it used to.

Kelsey: 23:14

Definitely the amount of time that is spent in like the heat of the moment, I feel like is less. It shortens up the whole cycle.

Brett: 23:26

Yeah, I love this. I just get to watch you talk and now I'm flustered. I don't even know where I was going with this. But what I was going to say is they hear a lot about me breaking my cycle. They get to hear a lot. You know quite a bit about my thoughts and my perspective, but I wonder for you, like what's your experience in breaking the complex cycle? Like, how do you go about it?

Kelsey: 23:59

I feel like you probably have some more of the skills exercised Like I feel like almost. You are willing to call it out as a cycle sooner than me sometimes, and I feel like she's like no, you're just being a jerk.

Brett: 24:14

I'm like this is a cycle, I promise.

Kelsey: 24:19

I don't know. I feel like, personally, it's just owning what I can control, owning what I can change. Am I showing up in a way that is actually going to get the result that I want in the relationship? And often how we show up the actions that we take, the words that we say, even the feelings that we have that make us act certain ways and whatnot it's like that initial response, our kind of a go-to response, isn't actually what we want. So I think slowing things down and just kind of like stepping back and knowing what's going on inside of you and maybe just like realizing that owning that piece and then helps you act and talk and whatnot, from like a better spot.

Brett: 25:14

Yeah, and what would you say, like about we've had this conversation just about like moods and stuff like it feels like sometimes it's really challenging to break our cycle and it feels like it's tied to like sometimes we're hungry or retired or we're like super stressed.

Kelsey: 25:34

We need to get help to the kids.

Brett: 25:37

Mama's been away from the kids too long, but sometimes we do have to recognize that there's aspects to our life that once we can resolve them or take care of them, then we can re-approach the conversation around the conflict cycle and a lot of times, maybe some of those cycles that have been challenging to repair or mend, once we have some food in our stomach, or maybe sometimes after we get a good night rest, we can come back to it and we can be like yeah, I can see that and we can be on our own piece a lot more easily. It seems like and so that's what I found like some of the more like really stuck cycles is a little bit of time and just reassuring each other that hey, once we get this figured out or let's get a good night's sleep and let's come back to it in the morning, has been helpful.

Kelsey: 26:33

Totally yeah, but there's still things I feel like that maybe we don't have a full understanding of each other and how each other operates or why we do what we do, but so maybe it's not a cycle solved, but it's like we can at least let it go. Both of us feel like we're letting it go a little bit easier versus kind of holding on to that resentment that so easily crops up.

Brett: 26:55

Yeah, and I think an example of that is that last cycle we had at the MSP airport, where it was like we both were able to, at the end of that conversation, recognize that we had two different ways of approaching an airport and I think we both can see like neither is right, neither is wrong and we can see how those two different approaches cause like this anxiety or this like frustration within each of us, which kind of got us into a cycle and we're able to reassure each other that we do really care about each other. We don't want to like cause each other pain, and we can see how our different approaches cause each other pain and we're going to be more aware of that. We've kind of talked about how to prevent that in the future, but it wasn't like we we solved that issue necessarily. But we can see that we both really do care about each other and love each other and don't want to cause each other pain.

Kelsey: 27:54

Yeah, I think that was big for that whole airport scene. It was like, okay, it's kind of our personalities creeping in the way that you would handle trying to get a shuttle, in the way that I would handle trying to get a shuttle, and it's like you're not going to necessarily fix the issue, but being able to understand that you weren't trying to do that to bother me and I wasn't trying to act that way to irritate you, helps.

Brett: 28:19

Yeah, and I just love the snot out of you. Well isn't that the best? While Kelsey is Cringing over there and I'm just wanting to pile it on more, we will spare you guys and really want to. Just let's see. I had a couple more questions here, maybe. Oh yeah, one more question that I had here is the reason we want to break the cycle is to establish a more secure bond. Do you feel like our bond has become more secure with these skills? And if so, kelsey, how?

Kelsey: 29:01

Definitely. I think like it's probably natural, the longer a relationship Goes on, you kind of learn more about each other. You might have grace for certain areas if you've been able to Forgive and make peace with each other's way of doing things. But I feel like I look back at our courtship, our early years of marriage, and I'm like, oh, I'm so glad we have grown from those days, because there was so much like confusion and hurt and just kind of like this there's a lot of love too, but I feel like it's a less of an understanding of each other.

Kelsey: 29:34

And I feel like being able to kind of work through things as your marriage goes on and we've only been married 11 years but at the same time I feel like it has gotten so much better.

Brett: 29:46

Yeah, yeah it's.

Brett: 29:47

It is hard to explain because I look back and there was like a lot of good memories in those early years like we, we loved each other, we did we're best friends, we did a lot but but there were like a lot of challenges and the challenges Left you like.

Brett: 30:03

The only way I can describe it is is like we were just less secure with each other. It was harder to really understand or believe or trust that that beautiful woman over there was committed to me, loved me, cared about me and, yeah, maybe with time, but I really feel like being able to talk through these conflicts has allowed for me to really have more of a secure bond with you. It really I can see how Some of the things that I have done have caused you to show up the way that you do and I can see how some of the pain that you're experiencing causes you to show up the way that you do. And I really Firmly trust and believe that we both care about each other, we both want the best for each other and Oftentimes we get confused and we get anxious. And if we can just keep working through that anxiety and that Anxiousness, breaking our cycle, I really think that you and I will have a lot of fun in the years to come. What do you think, babe?

Kelsey: 31:13

Totally. Yeah, I know. We were just at a wedding reception yesterday for a nephew and we were reminded how Like God's design is that you know he will bless the marriage and he will take care of it. If you take care of each other and you both do your best to do that role and I Think that's true it's like finding these practical tools to help the practical side of marriage and using forgiveness to help the spiritual side of Marriage is they can go hand in hand together.

Brett: 31:41

I agree. These are the times. Cal see that there have been a few moments where I'm like man. We should have a video podcast. And when you're on, I'm like man. They need to see you.

Kelsey: 32:03

This is not my forte. I'm a behind the scenes kind of girl. I think I've threatened that like if you want me to be doing more of this, my heels will be dug in the ground even harder than they already are.

Brett: 32:14

Yeah, and now she's going on indefinite maternity leave.

Kelsey: 32:19

Maybe you won't ever be in the office again, but Sure, been fun to have you in here and yeah, it's been on the source of many cycles, but I think we've come a little ways and, yeah, even working together on business. I'm sure we'll have a lot of off-air candid conversations around business, but Think it'll be good to be home with the kids and Kind of have the focus be on the new baby coming and yeah, pregnancy's coming to end.

Brett: 32:47

How's it going ready for baby?

Kelsey: 32:49

Yeah, I've been around a lot of newborns lately, and Boy doesn't make you anxious to meet your own when you feel the baby kicking inside and your weeks are dwindling. It's just over a month until baby is supposed to be due, so we're looking forward to it mm-hmm, you're the best mama ever.

Brett: 33:08

Can't wait to see the new baby and see you interacting with it, and can't wait to just Think I'm. On one of my previous podcasts I said typically I don't look forward to January, but I feel like this will be a little bit of a different January. We'll be able to kind of Get in the lights and all that baby and be with her kiddos.

Kelsey: 33:30

Yeah, for sure. I think January, february is when most Minnesotans get itchy to get out of dodge and head down to the warmth and my mindset this time anyway has been like oh, maybe this will be just like a cozy late winter, have lots of a home time, quiet, dark, cozy candles. Yeah, I won't guarantee that, but Sounds kind of cozy to have a new baby that time of year.

Brett: 34:02

Thanks for coming on, kelsey, and appreciate you here and your willingness to share your perspective, and I know you don't enjoy it. I know it's not fun for you, but know that I love you and I do this because I think you're Really good insight and perspective, and I know that there's other people who feel like you do and we'll understand it better coming from you Because you're a lot smarter than me, so I appreciate it.

Kelsey: 34:28

I'm a lot less gifted with words, but it's one of those things that, like I know that most other couples are experiencing a similar ride as us, and I feel like being able to visit face to face is so much easier versus giving a speech out into the air feels a little bit more difficult for me. But I'm totally comfortable with Sharing our experience, especially face to face and whatnot. But it's a good skill for me to learn to have just be able to put myself out there without Stressing too much about what people are hearing define too much.

Kelsey: 35:08

Yeah, that's one of my weaknesses, for sure.

Brett: 35:11

I think I think this went well. So thanks for coming on and We'll see you next time.

Kelsey: 35:19

You wish See you guys.

Brett: 35:26

This has been the fighting for connection podcast. If you've enjoyed this podcast and want more content like this, check out my connected couples campus, which can be found on my website, wwwpivotalapproachcom, and become the difference you need in your relationship.